There is an alleged Swede in the FIDO POLITICS echo who claims that
Sweden and Norway are socialists and are perfect examples of it.

lol, well he likely is just "alleged" and not an actual Swede. Sweden did experiment with socialism (60s and 70s) if I recall) but eventually realized it was bringing them down hard and they managed to shake it off.

they have a lot of socialist policies.

Not trying to be a jerk or sound anti-American, so please don't take it that way. But that is a very American take that has always been false. Socialism is when the government owns the means of production. Venezuela is a true socialist nation. They first nationalized the petroleum industry then when they ran out of money they nationalized other industries.

Yes socialist countries like to have lots of social programs like the Scandinavian countries. But they try to afford those social programs by said nationalization of industry. Whereas the Scandinavian countries pay for it through high taxes. The socialists like to pretend industry will pay for it because before socialism they were greedy and corrupt. Whereas the Scandinavians know their taxes are paying for their services. They don't have any delusions about "free health care". They can read their pay stubs and tax returns. Being small mostly homogeneous countries greatly helps them too.

Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Arelor to Dumas Walker on Fri Feb 25 2022 05:55 pm

Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Dumas Walker to DENN on Fri Feb 25 2022 03:32 pm

I visted Canada back in 2017. Ran into a Canadian citizen who volunteere in the US armed forces so he could see more of the world. He also wanted his kids to have a choice as to which country they lived in. Whenever people found out I was from the US, politics became a topic they liked to me about. This fellow pointed out that Europeans dislike the US... until they need our money or our troops.

Actually, we Europeans seem to hate the US, but we don't stop if we happen t need American funds or troops. We just take them and keep on hating.

If I was American I would be pissed off.

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what do you think the source of the hatred is based on?

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Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Feb 26 2022 11:14 am

Actually, we Europeans seem to hate the US, but we don't stop if we happe need American funds or troops. We just take them and keep on hating.

If I was American I would be pissed off.

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what do you think the source of the hatred is based on?

I am not sure, to be honest.

My theory is that the US is culturally an alien thing to Europeans. US culture is based on limiting the power of the ruling class because the ruling class in inherently untrustworthy. Europeans try to solve most of their social problems by giving more power to the power and seem to think that doing otherwise is something fitting barbarians (ie. only barbarians without functional police need a 2nd amendment and only barbarians without socialist healthcare need private hospital services).

If you check popular Spanish meme sites, Americans are usually portrayed as fat rednecks who need a scooter to move around :-S

Then there are "¤little" things such as the fact a lot of Europeans are
goodist pacifist, to the point they would not defend themselves if a random sucker started beating on them, and since the US is regarded as a militaristic power, it is automatically worthy of hate for them.


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Socailism works at smaller population levels and it requires everyone to buy into it to work. In communes and family farms, people take care of each other. Once the old are too old to work, they are taken care of. Until that happens, everybody works. Eferybody has a job and is expected to do it even if they don't like it because it is necessary. If you slip up once in awhile, it's ok because others will pick up the slack, but if you're dead weight or refuse to work, there's no place for you. I think the psuedo educated liberals forget about the down side. Society had to be structured so that jobs get filled regardless what the individual wants. Individual rights are over ruled by social responsibilities.

That and Americans who seem to want socialism either want, or believe that there will still be, a class that does not work and lives off of the productivity of others. They do not understand the "no place for you"
concept.

Yes, that happens to some extent now, but they want it to be fully-government-sponsored and official.


* SLMR 2.1a * Genealogy. Tracing descent from someone who didn't.

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Dumas Walker wrote to MOONDOG <=-

@MSGID: <623A3BDD.24743.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <smb_getmsgidx

Socailism works at smaller population levels and it requires everyone to buy into it to work. In communes and family farms, people take care of each other. Once the old are too old to work, they are taken care of. Until

that

happens, everybody works. Eferybody has a job and is expected to do it even if they don't like it because it is necessary. If you slip up once in awhile, it's ok because others will pick up the slack, but if you're dead weight or refuse to work, there's no place for you. I think the psuedo educated liberals forget about the down side. Society had to be structured so that jobs get filled regardless what the individual wants. Individual rights are over ruled by social responsibilities.

That and Americans who seem to want socialism either want, or believe
that there will still be, a class that does not work and lives off of
the productivity of others. They do not understand the "no place for
you" concept.

Yes, that happens to some extent now, but they want it to be fully-government-sponsored and official.

Socialism and Capitalism both are promoted by people who believe there is a class which will live off the productivity of others. Both systems offer that promise of mooching off others, just to different demographics. The fight between Socialism and Capitalism is really these two demographics deciding who gets to mooch of the workers.

Capitalism is winning because it has convinced the workers that their mooching is better, and perhaps it is in practice (for now) but it is still mooching. Maybe in the future Chinese "Capitalism" will win over Western "Capitalism", the former being more Communist than the latter.

You don't replace one parasite with another which is less harmful. You clear yourself of parasites.


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Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Mar 22 2022 05:01 pm

Socailism works at smaller population levels and it requires everyone to b into it to work. In communes and family farms, people take care of each other. Once the old are too old to work, they are taken care of. Until t happens, everybody works. Eferybody has a job and is expected to do it ev if they don't like it because it is necessary. If you slip up once in awhile, it's ok because others will pick up the slack, but if you're dead weight or refuse to work, there's no place for you. I think the psuedo educated liberals forget about the down side. Society had to be structure so that jobs get filled regardless what the individual wants. Individual rights are over ruled by social responsibilities.

That and Americans who seem to want socialism either want, or believe that there will still be, a class that does not work and lives off of the productivity of others. They do not understand the "no place for you" concept.

Yes, that happens to some extent now, but they want it to be fully-government-sponsored and official.

* SLMR 2.1a * Genealogy. Tracing descent from someone who didn't.

Bingo. The folks taking liberal degrees may have never been able to take
them in a socialist system, unless there is a need for such a position and
they can pass the testing to get that job. The system may tolerate a student or two dropping out or not acquiring the job they were trained for, and the system will compensate for that by not offering classes or programs that are not required at that moment.

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Boraxman wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

Socialism and Capitalism both are promoted by people who believe there
is a class which will live off the productivity of others.

It's readily appearant that Socialism promotes this (ex. Bernie). But where is a good example of Capitalism promoting this?

The fight between Socialism and Capitalism is really
these two demographics deciding who gets to mooch of the workers.

Ahh.. Never mind. There it is. The old (literally) Marx propaganda about the "exploitation of the workers".

Capitalism is winning because it has convinced the workers that their mooching is better,

Nothing of the sort. Capitalism is winning because it has PROVEN to be better for the workers. Where's the "worker revolts" that Marx and Engels (and other ignorant, useless marxists) predicted? They never happened. Why? Because the standard of living of said workers went up, and continued to go up.

Capitalism brings EVERYONE up (as opposed to Socialism which brings everyone down).

The only people who push for Socialism are people who are lazy and stupid, but want to believe that they are important enough for society to support them.


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That and Americans who seem to want socialism either want, or believe that there will still be, a class that does not work and lives off of the productivity of others. They do not understand the "no place for you" concept.

Bingo. The folks taking liberal degrees may have never been able to take them in a socialist system, unless there is a need for such a position and they can pass the testing to get that job. The system may tolerate a student or two dropping out or not acquiring the job they were trained for, and the system will compensate for that by not offering classes or programs that are not required at that moment.

Yeah, if the US ever goes that route, I think some people who thought they wanted it will be disappointed when they (1) cannot major in unemployable subjects, and (2) have to be employed and doing their part.


* SLMR 2.1a * Psychics will lead dogs to your body.

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Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Wed Mar 23 2022 04:15 pm

That and Americans who seem to want socialism either want, or believe t there will still be, a class that does not work and lives off of the productivity of others. They do not understand the "no place for you" concept.

Bingo. The folks taking liberal degrees may have never been able to take them in a socialist system, unless there is a need for such a position and they can pass the testing to get that job. The system may tolerate a stud or two dropping out or not acquiring the job they were trained for, and th system will compensate for that by not offering classes or programs that not required at that moment.

Yeah, if the US ever goes that route, I think some people who thought they wanted it will be disappointed when they (1) cannot major in unemployable subjects, and (2) have to be employed and doing their part.

* SLMR 2.1a * Psychics will lead dogs to your body.

If you look at Canada's socialized medical program, people have to travel a hundred miles or more to a major city for an MRI or CAT scan. When a doctor gives an opinion, there is no second opinions or hoping the system will pay
for another doctor to look you over. Just hope the doctor you get doesn't misdiagnose the symptoms and chop out something that shouldn't have been removed.

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Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <623B1172.45272.dove-debate@dmine.net>
@REPLY: <623AED91.22898.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

Boraxman wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

It's readily appearant that Socialism promotes this (ex. Bernie). But where is a good example of Capitalism promoting this?

People earning a passive income. I manage a large share portfolio, not my personal one, but the money came from inflated asset prices, which was then put into shares, so the company earns dividends from the productive work of others.

We literally did NOTHING to earn this money, produced NOTHING yet have a steady income stream. This is a feature of Capitalism.

Ahh.. Never mind. There it is. The old (literally) Marx propaganda
about the "exploitation of the workers".

As I just outlined, people are seeking to obtain an income from productive activity while not being productive themselves. That is mooching.

You might have a justification for it, but I'm describing it as it appears. People taking a cut of productive activity by holding capital. Rent seekers are the same.

This has nothing to do with "surplus value".

Nothing of the sort. Capitalism is winning because it has PROVEN to be better for the workers. Where's the "worker revolts" that Marx and
Engels (and other ignorant, useless marxists) predicted? They never happened. Why? Because the standard of living of said workers went
up, and continued to go up.

Thats what I said, it works better. But being better doens't justify stagnation and not progressing further. It still have fundamental flaws and issues regarding property rights.

Capitalism brings EVERYONE up (as opposed to Socialism which brings everyone down).

The only people who push for Socialism are people who are lazy and
stupid, but want to believe that they are important enough for society
to support them.

Based on what I'm experience, Capitalism is pushing people down now due to its failures. I literally had to turn down a MANAGERIAL position because I couldn't afford to move near where the job was, and the job isn't in Manhattan or Monte Carlo, it was in the suburbs of Melbourne.

That is a failing system. We've tried dealing with this crisis, the housing crisis using Capitalistic solutions, and they haven't worked. There is a problem with distribution of resources.

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Dumas Walker wrote to MOONDOG <=-

Yeah, if the US ever goes that route, I think some people who thought
they wanted it will be disappointed when they (1) cannot major in unemployable subjects, and (2) have to be employed and doing their
part.

We're already seeing that today.

All those whiny grads with useless degrees complaining that no one will pay them the 6 figures that they believe they deserve - so they can pay off their student loans for those useless degrees.


... Money is like a promise, easier made then kept.
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If you look at Canada's socialized medical program, people have to travel a hundred miles or more to a major city for an MRI or CAT scan. When a doctor gives an opinion, there is no second opinions or hoping the system will pay for another doctor to look you over. Just hope the doctor you get doesn't misdiagnose the symptoms and chop out something that shouldn't have been removed.

I heard that from a couple of people I met in Canada. One of them was
nearing 80 but in good health. He lived in a smaller town on the north coast of Lake Superior. He had received a letter from the government telling him that he needed to *move* to one of those major cities in order to be
guaranteed proper health care. He contacted them and let them know that, when he moved South, it would be to Florida and a private health care plan.

The other one had volunteered to serve in the US Military when he was
younger. I met him in a bordertown. He was staying there so that he could travel across into the US and see his VA doctor. I was surprised as you
often hear not so great things about the US VA medical services. He said
that they were better than his socialized services in Canada and that he
was very glad to have them.


* SLMR 2.1a * Wasting time is an important part of life.

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Yeah, if the US ever goes that route, I think some people who thought they wanted it will be disappointed when they (1) cannot major in unemployable subjects, and (2) have to be employed and doing their
part.

We're already seeing that today.

All those whiny grads with useless degrees complaining that no one will pay them the 6 figures that they believe they deserve - so they can pay off their student loans for those useless degrees.

Yes, but a lot of those folks believe that we should become a socialist
country so that they don't have to get a job at all when, in reality, a socialist government probably won't let them go to college and major in something useless, and they won't let them just sit around and do nothing
while the mooch off the government.


* SLMR 2.1a * Illiterate? Want to learn to read? Write for free info.

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Dumas Walker wrote to Dr. What <=-

Yes, but a lot of those folks believe that we should become a socialist country so that they don't have to get a job at all when, in reality, a socialist government probably won't let them go to college and major in something useless, and they won't let them just sit around and do
nothing while the mooch off the government.

But they look at people like Bernie Sanders, who never worked in his life, yet has a rich life style.

But no one ever said that these socialist-liking people could comprehend reality.


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Yes, but a lot of those folks believe that we should become a socialist country so that they don't have to get a job at all when, in reality, a socialist government probably won't let them go to college and major in something useless, and they won't let them just sit around and do nothing while the mooch off the government.

But they look at people like Bernie Sanders, who never worked in his life, yet
has a rich life style.

Yes, some of them could become politicians, or members of the nomenklatura,
and do OK, but that does require some effort, even if most of us would not
call it "work."

But no one ever said that these socialist-liking people could comprehend reality.

I know I did not say that. :)


* SLMR 2.1a * Oh very clever Worf, eat any good books lately?

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There is a reason why US Constitutionalist are so anal with their Constitutional rights, and are always bitching "the Constitution this" and "th
Constitution that." The reason is no other than the fact the State is recognized as a rotten entity which cannot be trusted with limitless power. Th
very existence of bills or rights and the like (which are very, VERY Western) is an open admission that State's power structures will be used to stomp the population if left uncheck.

Exactly. The founding father's, coming out from under the bootheel of the British, were very familiar with what unchecked power could allow a State
to do.


* SLMR 2.1a * "Bother", said Pooh, as he pulled the cat off his face.

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Re: Re: The stay home and not
By: Dumas Walker to DR. WHAT on Fri Mar 25 2022 04:03 pm

Yes, but a lot of those folks believe that we should become a sociali country so that they don't have to get a job at all when, in reality, socialist government probably won't let them go to college and major something useless, and they won't let them just sit around and do nothing while the mooch off the government.

But they look at people like Bernie Sanders, who never worked in his life, has a rich life style.

Yes, some of them could become politicians, or members of the nomenklatura, and do OK, but that does require some effort, even if most of us would not call it "work."

But no one ever said that these socialist-liking people could comprehend reality.

I know I did not say that. :)

* SLMR 2.1a * Oh very clever Worf, eat any good books lately?

Even folks who don't have normal everyday jobs have to put in some form of effort. I had a cousin who worked for a non-profit after he retired, and his job was to solicit donations and apply for grant money. Granted he made
enough money in his other job to retire on, the pay he was offered could allow
him to live a very basic life.

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Even folks who don't have normal everyday jobs have to put in some form of effort. I had a cousin who worked for a non-profit after he retired, and his job was to solicit donations and apply for grant money. Granted he made enough money in his other job to retire on, the pay he was offered could allow
him to live a very basic life.

Understood and agreed. Once I retire, I expect to still have to put in
some form of effort. I will still be too young and able bodied not to.


* SLMR 2.1a * It's not the age - it's the mileage!

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